Early viewers are reporting this is one worth watching. Apparently, there was a clear winner in this debate.
But I won't say who.
Almost time. Good luck JK!

I was an early watcher, and I won't give it away. A must watch.

Good Morning, everyone!

This starts out here at 8:00...in thirty minutes. I wouldn't miss it. :)

Russert introduces Kerry and McCain, in that order. Nice touch.

McCain starts off mumbling.

yes, and with two of my favorite pics of JK.

McCain: Rumsfeld and administration to blame for previous failure, now succeeding. Pulling out means chaos.

Starting out with pic of JK in uniform. Nice.

Russert starting with McCain. McCain saying we're now succeeding? How? That's not the opinion of most observers, Sen McCain.
Starting out spinning. Who didn't know that.

McCain is just delusional

Bush/McCain strategy of escalating our troops in the middle of a civil war is not a policy for change.

JK says there has been ample opportunity to work on political solutions over the past 4 1/2 years.
"We have to change the fundamental equation."
This is not making us safer, we need a better policy.
"Republicans are obstructing."

Kerry: Last 4 years they had plenty of opportunity to make political progress, nothing happened. This war is now making us weaker on the war on terror because we have no leverage.

Kerry look likes great, first question to McCain. McCain blames Rummy for the mismanagment, surprise!
Sen. Kerry says not enough troops to secure all the areas in Iraq. Over four yeas the Iraq's have had many opportunities to come together. This conflict is making us weaking and enpowering Iran.
We need to reestablish leverage.

McCain answering first. Says we are succeeding and that that is the better than going back to the failed strategy as the Democrats want or withdrawing.

Kerry says that it doesn't resolve the fundamental problems - they have had ample opportunity to use the political will to change. This is making us weaker in the region. Gives the better policy - basically Kerry/Feingold. Refers to going back to where we were a year ago - to where the country was falling apart.

McCain still trying to say the Democrats are for going back to where we were in January.

Kerry: we are going back to where we were a year and a half ago when the country almost fell apart

McCain mumbling something about Kissinger.

McCain pointing to al-Anbar. Hey, McCain, they don't want us there. And we can't take credit for any progress in al-Anbar.
Geez. I'm getting dizzy. Let's hear from JK.

Kerry: We're not talking about abandonment - talking about changing the mission. Continue training Iraqi forces so they can stand on their own etc.
There was no Al Qaeda before. We're there on a pretense in the middle of a civil war.
You have to create uncertainty, leverage; only way to do that is tell them the mission is changing, or they won't do anything.

JK-
"We're not talking about abandoning Iraq, we're talking about changing the mission."
McCain has a fundamental misunderstanding about alQeda and Iraq.

"Have to surge the diplomacy, not the troops."

"WHERE'S CONDI RICE?"

Excellent, JK.

Mccain, blah, blah, blah.
Kerry- we are not talking about abandoning Iraq. We must change equations. We need that leverage. We have to make it clear we are transitioning.the missing factor- deplomacy.
Where is Condi? Where is the deplomcy?

Kerry said there was no al-Qaeda in Iraq before the war.

McCain: claims that's advocating going back to the failed tactic of before?

What before?

Hi all!

Mmm, blue tie.

More substantively: JK: need to surge the diplomacy, not the troops.

Absolutely!

McCain still hiding behind Petraeus.
The uniform is not a shield. McCain and Bush have to stop hiding behind Petraeus.

Here is what they think in Anbar and the rest of Iraq:

In a survey conducted Aug. 17-24 for ABC News, the BBC and NHK, the Japanese broadcaster, among a random national sample of 2,212 Iraqis, 72 percent in Anbar expressed no confidence whatsoever in United States forces. Seventy-six percent said the United States should withdraw now — up from 49 percent when we polled there in March, and far above the national average.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/16/opinion/16langer.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

Kerry - not speaking of withdrawal, but changing the mission. McCain has a missunderstanding of relationship of AlQaeda and Iraq. Not in there before attack. Now the Iraqis are using us as cover not to make decisions. As is we have no leverage. Stunning lack of diplomacy - where is Condi Rice.

McCain - back to same talking point - Kerry goingback tothe stay the course policy. Quotes Petraeus that Iraq is center front of the War on Terrorism.

Kerry quotes McCain testimony with Petraeus - he said the AL QAEDA says that Iraq is the center front. Kerry explains the religious inferences that lead to the Shiite's rejection of Al Qaeda.

JK-
McCain holds up the specter of a disaster, but does nothing to mitigate it.

JK says we need to get out of Iraq to be stronger in the region.

JK-
We've gone back to 'stay the course'. The American people have rejected 'stay the course.

Central front- he listened and read McCain's questioning of Petraus.

Shites will never allow al Queada to remain. we are the attraction for al Queada.
McCain is spinning.
Senator Kerry grimacing over McCain spin.
He says we need to get out of Iraq to be stronger.
We will be there to protect Iraq. Many ways to acheive our goals in Iraq right now we have one strategy and it is not working.

McCain is giving his opinion of what Gen. Jones said despite the facts.

I just it on---radio replay will be on wtkk 96.9 fm. It is interesting to hear on radio sometimes after, although body language doesnt seem to be playing into this debate.

McCain just dodged the question Russert posed: what happens after 90 days, 6 months, 9 months when there is no progress on reconciliation?

McCain is losing his temper ... Kerry has a little smile.

McCain's Jones point is completely trashed by Kerry - he is not speaking of withdrawal. Now, McCain is dissing the WP - which said Jones said political reconciliation was most important.

McCain hit with Lindsey Graham's statement - McCain really is standing alone. He is now almost taking the real Democratic position that we would withdraw some of them.

Kerry is fantastic explaining why they are not compromising - they don't want to.

McCain still spinning. He still says we're seeing military and political progress, but doesn't back it up with anything.

JK saying the reason Iraqis aren't compromising is because they don't want to. Need to resolve the fundamental differences. Unless you do that, no surge, no amount of troops is going to do that.

There is no military solution. Where is the political solution?

Aw, JK bringing up the NYT op-ed by the seven troops.

And mentions that two were just killed.

Tim- What do the Dems do

JK- We don't have the votes to override a veto. That's what 2008 is about.

JK says will vote to change the funding. To fund the troops but change the mission.

Russert: What do dems do now? Only option is to cut off funding.

JK: No, dems don't even have that option - must have 60 votes just to cut off funding; in fact for anything. Need a change of attitude by Repubs - can't just give a strong speech, must vote that way too.

JK: Dems not "choosing to lose" - that's insulting - Dems are choosing for America to win.

Ok, McCain is interupting Kerry and Russert. Gerr.
Finally, question to Kerry. The surge does not change the fundimental issues in Iraq. Sunni's want to return to power. There is no military solution. Where is the political solution?
Iraq's have fundimental difference that will not be resolved by the surge.

Kerry quoting the soldiers' NYT op-ed. Says we should listen to them.

Kerry says that any law they pass now the President can negate. Speaks of Republicans making strong speeches while voting with Bush.

Now giving what the 2008 Presidential candidate should say word by word. McCain now sounds real low key - I think he knows Kerry just blew him out of the water. Now, mentioning wanting to win in Vietnam - can't wait to see if Kerry takes the bait - with the same frame he used with Petraeus.

Good question by Russert re how long we can continue war without the public's support.

McCain is generally in the school of thought that we could have won in Vietnam -- without really saying what winning is.

McCain is a creep. "you voted for it, John".
Umm, not exactly, McCain. He did not vote for an Iraq invasion. Were I John Kerry, I'd say that and ask McCain what it was HE voted for, and why he is so gung ho about the war now.

I will need to count the number of times McCain says Petraeus. He's hiding behind the General.

JK saying
McCain says the Dems are for failure. We've had 4 1/2 years of failure. Pres said we'd hold Iraqis to their benchmarks, but that's not happening.
Dems are not proposing failure, we're proposing a way to make this successful. Nothing in the surge addresses the fundamental problems.
We have to change the equation.

McCain again says we're succeeding. Still not explaining how that results in 4 million displaced Iraqis and thousands of casualties.

Kerry speaking of taking eyes of the real war. McCain debating himself. Got McCain angry - McCain says Kerry voted for the last 4 1/2 years - not true.

Kerry's response takes the high groung - "not walking away, it's walking forward." McCain now speaking of his study of history - saying the surge.

JK talking about the training of Iraqis. Asking why are they not trained after all this time?
McCain blaming Rumsfeld for the training, but JK pointed out that Petraeus was responsible for training.
We were told by Sec Rice that 120 thousand were trained two years ago. Where is the accountability for the benchmarks?

Kerry: Rice said last year there'd be 126k Iraqi troops trained, then JK asked Petraeus last spring who said, there'll be 120k troops. How many times do they get to change the goal posts? Where can we even get without benchmarks?

JK-
McCain and the admin keeps avoiding the real issue of diplomacy.
Pres talked about 36 allies. That's an insult to American intelligence.

Claiming 36 allies is an insult to our intelligence - says JK. How much are they contributing in soldiers, budgets?? Ha!!!

Democrats are proposing a way to make Iraq successful.
McCain is a blockhead. He keeps on suggesting that we are succeeding.

Senator Kerry says, what about the training? After five years we may not have Iraq's able to defend Iraq's. They can not stand up even after four years of training. Two years ago he was told by Secretary of State that Iraqi's were making progress in training their troops.

Last word to Kerry. McCain ignores that the one thing that we need to succeed in Iraq - deplomacy.
We both support the troops and we want them to come home safely.

McCain is a liar and / or an idiot (ok we already knew that)

He claims he never heard of a troop withdrawal that was a "wining strategy". Yeah, right. It is not that uncommon even on a traditional battlefield to pull back from one position to obtain a better overall strategic position. (Where's a military historian when you need one - I'm sure there are plenty of good examples.)

That was excellent. Sen Kerry wiped the floor with McCain.
Nicely done, JK.

JK did very well.

McCain demonstrated that he's bought the administration narrative hook, line and sinker.

The bloggers in left blogistan should be cheering.

One nice little Kerry comeback - when McCain dismissed the poor training of Iraqis on Rumsfeld implying that is no longer a problem - Kerry said that it was Petraeus that headed it.

Whoever said there was a clear winner at the beginning of this is guilty of understatement.

Smack down... McCain looked tired and his rhetoric was laughable. JK looked and spoke like a president. I like the way JK was kind to him and treated him like a human being and a friend. McCain wouldn't even look at JK. Ridiculous.

Hi guys. I'm coming late to the game, but I just wanted to say Kerry was fantastic, and got so many great points in:

There is not military solution in Iraq, only a political solution

Sunni leaders made a POLITICAL decision to join us to fight al Qaeda. (awesome point)

Passing an oil bill, debaathication bill, does not require better security. It requires the political will to do so.

Al Qaeda was not in Iraq until we went into Iraq. They and the Iranians LOVE IT that we're bogged down in Iraq.

We need to get into a room with the Iraqis and have 3 questions answered (and don't leave that room until we get an answer): 1. Do you want a pluralistic government and nation? 2. Or do you want a soft partitioned loose federal republic where Sunnis and Shi'ites live apart? 3. Is all possible solutions impossible?

Kerry talked about the NYT op-ed writers, 2 of whom have died, and then quoted their article. This meant a lot to me, because it kept those brave men in the news. Thank you, senator. McCain's response was to dismiss them by saying "hundreds" of troops tell him they want to "win". If they wrote something as eloquent as the 7 NCOs did, he'd have a point. But the truth was McCain had no documentation to back up what these troops said or what exactly they meant by it.

There was a moment when JK touched McCain's arm in a colloquial way to try to get a point in. It is apparent to me that JK still remembers that they used to be friends, and in spite of everything, can't completely shake that fact. Meanwhile, McCain, in full cold calculation, did not give one nice moment to acknowledge that old friendship, since he views that politically inexpedient to do so. Shame on him.

The only way McCain could have convinced any viewers is if they suspend disbelief and believe him that we are "succeeding". Kerry poked about a million holes in that theory.

I loved the "john you're debating with yourself". How perfect. I read the daily kos site in which a poster said the JK wiped the floor with McCain. I almost felt sorry for McCain, I used to like him when he was JKs friend.